Whats up with PDS?

[glenlivet]

So, after being away for several months mainly because I had no projects on the griddle that used a PIC, I went to see if there were any PDS upgrades and discovered that the original PDS site is gone, with the exception of the explanation that was really no explanation of what happened to the PDS product! If one was a regular visitor to the original PDS forum, what was going on between Les, Crownhill, Mecanique, et.al., was probably well known. After digging through this forum a bit and the Crownhill site I'm still not sure of what transpired. Like I said I've been away... Are there any upgrades newer than I.D.E 2.0.3.3 and Compiler 3.7.3.6 available? If so, where? So this dongleless version Les is selling on Ebay. What I liked about the dongle was that I could have the SW installed on several machines and work on a project no matter where I was and still be living in the one license one CPU rule. Does the dongleless (if that's a real word) version allow for multiple installs or does one have to buy a license for each CPU? Les, if you're reading this, is PDS going to come online with a new professional looking site or is it to remain relegated to an Ebay download and a lots-o-luck fella user forum? No ill directed at the forum users here- however, I develop things for companies that ultimately end up in real for sale products sitting on a store shelf. The way PDS is presently being rolled out there is really no assurance of any future development on features or new CPU's, etc., and no assurance of how much longer the product will even be around. At this point, considering the way the product is being marketed and supported I'm afraid my clients would regard it as a hobbyist product.             

[TimB]

IMHO

Some basics that have to be understood.
Proton in any guise has always been the work of Les J. There has never been a company with loads of coders producing the compiler.

If you need that then pay an annual subscription to the likes of Microchip. But even they may discontinue the product.
I imagine you paid a few £ many years back and have ever since enjoyed the free updates and new device support and never being asked to cough up a penny for them.

Now and in the past Proton has never paid for itself. Not in any real terms. It has been a labour of love by Les. You have to think to yourself who has been paying for the updates and support? If it was not you then how was it being done.

(I may be wrong on some details here)
Currently Les has dropped the requirement for a dongle on new versions. If you have a version that requires one then you will need it for that version for ever.
Newer versions require a new licence and that is available for an absolute bargain price via ebay. Its licenced to you and only you, however there is nothing stopping you loading it onto several of your PC's.

This is the model going forward. If you want the latest versions you need to purchase a licence.

As for using it for a project then if the current version works on a pic you have chosen then your golden. Keep a copy of the compiler with the firmware you wrote and you will for just about ever be able to support your code.

I and many others here develop products that are in 1000's of products worldwide on the shop self and in use.
I and many others will continue to develop products written in Proton for many years to come.

[See_Mos]

The current compiler version is 3.7.5.5, the IDE is still the old one. John B is working on a new IDE to be called Positron Studio to match Les' proposed name change to Positron.

The new compiler is well worth the little that Les is asking, we have had the old one virtually free for years, you only paid once and thereafter nothing despite the immense additions and improvements and support from Les.  I have disputed this business model previously on the forums but it suits Les.

When you buy the new version your name will be embedded in the compiled code but as Tim pointed out you can use it on as many machines as you wish.

[OG]

The owner of the old forum did a very ugly job.
There were many people's efforts in the forum.
He did a lot of ugly deeds.
He's a disrespectful man.

[top204]

The Proton, soon to be renamed Positron, compilers are constantly being developed by me, and devices added and anomalies corrected, and new features added, but trying my hardest to keep backward compatability.

The sale of the compilers on Ebay is, essentially, what I got for a compiler sale when "they" were selling them, after the money split.

I did "ALL" the creativity, innovation, and coding and testing work on the compilers in my own time, from home in the evenings and weekends and holidays, but they were not advertised or promoted etc, so they were never as popular as other, lesser, compilers that had money spent on advertising. Apparently "Advertising does not work", or so I was told, so it was dropped after a year or so of advertising in a UK magazine by them, but "they" still took 50% of the sale money, and I was stupid enough allow it because I was trapped with a Mortgage, and I have never seen myself as "clever", so I have always been a bit self conscious and I was scared to say anything and call it a day with them. The compilers should have been advertised in the USA magazines, and some others, because the UK magazines had a very small market, that is even less now. :-( There should also have been editorials when I created something new in the compilers and articles written using the compilers, but I simply did not have the time because I was too busy making other people money and a good reputation, and working on the compilers in my "spare" time, when I had some!

I would have gladly taken a smaller sale price for them so they could be advertised, because they would have sold more, but companies now want "BIG MONEY NOW", not "a bit more money" in a longer run, and I know that from experience! Although 50% for doing, pretty much, nothing was good for others. :-( I wish I could do that, although, I would not because it is not in my nature, unfortunately!

[m.kaviani]

dear Les,
At what time you think that the positron to be ready for sale?
and how much?

[top204]

The name changes will happen with the next "upgrade" to the compilers. I'm busy working on the installer, but it is a bit delayed because of some underlying health problems I have since my injury, but I get up and get on with it whenever I can. :-)

The "upgrade" will add new devices and new features to the compilers, and never, never, never require the silly USB dongle, which actually served no purpose because the compilers were still pirated, but it stopped immediate international internet sales! So it actually had a negative effect on the compilers. The upgrade will cost £25.00 and it adds new 8-bit and 16-bit devices and a new, unique, variable type to the compilers that allows pins to be passed as a parameter in the form of a variable, or used as a standard variable that accesses pins. The variable type is named "Pin". I've also added the ability to use aliases as procedure parameters and as the return from a procedure, which can make them extremely efficient and fast when an SFR is used as a parameter and/or return. You can also use a parameter variable as the return from a procedure! How's that for RAM and code memory efficiency? .i.e. Proc MyProc(pParam1 As Dword), pParam1. This will use the same variable RAM location, and type, that was passed to the procedure as its return variable RAM location, saving RAM and time. The procedure can change its value of course before it returns it using the Result = xxxx syntax. These were very time consuming additions to the compilers, but I think they are worth the weeks of work that has gone into them.

The upgrade also has a re-format of the compiler manuals, that have the extra features added.

Below is an image of the Positron8's manual cover, and the Positron16 manual uses the same graphic and format. I'm trying to think of a phrase to place on the bottom of the manual covers, much like the one I use in the code headers "Let's find out together what makes a PIC Tick", but I don't think that will suite a manual cover. Any ideas?

[RGV250]

How about"Boldly going where no compiler has gone before"?, probably have start trek lawyers on that though.

Bob

[Gary Scott]

I'm in and will gladly support your work @top204   

[glenlivet]

Apparently "Advertising does not work", or so I was told,

It certainly does- Mikroelectronika is proof positive and their products are available at Mouser. I own their ARM compiler for BASIC. I did a custom one-off for a client using one of their integrated CPU/touch screen devices that had a 32-bit ARM processor. It's nice, it's flashy it's a PITA to use because when it comes to syntax it's picky as all heck. It wants the code the way it wants it no if's and's or but's... From the tenor of some of the responses it would seem that a few folks thought I was flaming the intermediate product. It was not my intent. I understand, Les has to eat too. It was simply a reaction to my surprise in going to what I though was going to be the upgrade section of the forum only to find out that the product had appeared to have evaporated. That's why I reached out to this forum- to find out whats happening with it and what the future plans are. I find the PDS product much easier to use and implement than the Mikroe product. For the time being I can get by with my moldy oldy compiler and will simply select a supported CPU for my project. When Positron 8 rolls out- I'm in!

[glenlivet]

BTW,
The cover shot says for 8-bit microcontrollers. Will the PIC24 compiler also be included as in the old PDS? Are there any plans in the works for PIC32?

[okmn]

The name changes will happen with the next "upgrade" to the compilers. I'm busy working on the installer, but it is a bit delayed because of some underlying health problems I have since my injury, but I get up and get on with it whenever I can. :-)

The "upgrade" will add new devices and new features to the compilers, and never, never, never require the silly USB dongle, which actually served no purpose because the compilers were still pirated, but it stopped immediate international internet sales! So it actually had a negative effect on the compilers. The upgrade will cost £25.00 and it adds new 8-bit and 16-bit devices and a new, unique, variable type to the compilers that allows pins to be passed as a parameter in the form of a variable, or used as a standard variable that accesses pins. The variable type is named "Pin". I've also added the ability to use aliases as procedure parameters and as the return from a procedure, which can make them extremely efficient and fast when an SFR is used as a parameter and/or return. You can also use a parameter variable as the return from a procedure! How's that for RAM and code memory efficiency? .i.e. Proc MyProc(pParam1 As Dword), pParam1. This will use the same variable RAM location, and type, that was passed to the procedure as its return variable RAM location, saving RAM and time. The procedure can change its value of course before it returns it using the Result = xxxx syntax. These were very time consuming additions to the compilers, but I think they are worth the weeks of work that has gone into them.

The upgrade also has a re-format of the compiler manuals, that have the extra features added.

Below is an image of the Positron8's manual cover, and the Positron16 manual uses the same graphic and format. I'm trying to think of a phrase to place on the bottom of the manual covers, much like the one I use in the code headers "Let's find out together what makes a PIC Tick", but I don't think that will suite a manual cover. Any ideas?

dear Les,
we are waiting from you some information about these subjects!

1- do you have plan to make new  development board to debugging 8 bit 16 bit 32 bit pic for new positrons  ?we can not find amicus board now!!!
2- do you have plan to make new compiler for pic32 families?
3- do you have plan to make new manual(book) for positron with more example codes?(for a much easier and permanent narration)

[TimB]

Not that it's my position to answer on the behalf of Les. But!!!

It's no secret that Les suffered a brain hemorrhage a few years ago and that meant he had to give up work. He is not good with stress. We consider ourselves really lucky to have him working on the compiler, doing so much work for free.

So I'm little distressed to see some of what I perceive as demanding questions and comments.
I may have it completely wrong and it's not people's intention, but it kind of looks that way.

If you need something to code on like the Amicus board look at the fire wing board by mecanique https://www.mecanique.co.uk/shop/index.php?route=product/category&path=71
Or invest in a Sim by Labcenter Electronics

I cannot answer for the other questions.


 

[top204]

Many thanks Tim.

Since my injury, I now do suffer from extreme anxiety and fatique, because of where the damage is in the brain (left frontal lobe), and the constant Phantosmia. :-( However, I try my damnest to just get on with things, thanks to my lovely wife Rachel, and the moral support the users on here give.

do you have plan to make new  development board to debugging 8 bit 16 bit 32 bit pic for new positrons  ?we can not find amicus board now!!!

Development boards are now, 2-a-penny, and the Chinese ones are, sometimes, "literally", 2-a-penny. There are masses of them, so a new development board would not be worth the time and money and effort for a single person to do, because it simply could not compete with the Chinese and eastern european market. All the months of work I did on the Amicus18 board brought "zero" money to me, so I am reluctant to do it again, but if I did, it would be "me" selling it, not someone else. I have created the Positron8 and Positron16 boards and they are DIL sized so they fit on a breadboard, and they have USB serial interfaces and 5V and 3.3V regulators on board, and can be programmed directly with a PICkit programmer. However, I'm struggling to get a bootloader working in a dsPIC33CK device at the moment. I have one working in the PIC18F27K42 and PIC18F27Q43 devices though. :-)

do you have plan to make new compiler for pic32 families?

Not really. The PIC32 devices are a microcontroller that are "dead in the water", and I have a sneaky feeling Microchip bought Atmel so they had an ARM foothold. The PIC32 devices were never up to much, and are based upon the MIPS architecture, which has never been as good as the ARM architecture. Microchip did that many years ago as well, with the 8-bit PIC devices that they bought from GE. They use the "not so good, and very inflexible" Harvard architecture in the devices, instead of the "excellent" Von-Neuman architecture, which is much, much better and used by all microprocessors and most other microcontrollers.

I do have some plans for an ARM M0 Positron32 if I can find some reason to do it.

do you have plan to make new manual(book) for positron with more example codes?(for a much easier and permanent narration)

Yes! I have plans to create a few eBooks for, interesting, projects and tutorials etc... OK, eBooks sell for a couple of pounds, but even if I get a few sales, it is money that I did not have before, and hopefully, they will advertise the Positron compilers. I've been looking through the Arduino eBooks available and 99% of them are absolutely dreadful!!! They are so full of mistakes and copy and pasted items, and the code listings are so ugly and nonsensical they are simply not worth having, and teach people nothing! I cannot believe that somethings so bad can be around in the 21st century! Books should be well laid out, well planned and easy to scan and read, with information in them that has been researched! It seems that the internet rubbish has bled into, so called, books now as well. :-(

[okmn]

Not that it's my position to answer on the behalf of Les. But!!!

It's no secret that Les suffered a brain hemorrhage a few years ago and that meant he had to give up work. He is not good with stress. We consider ourselves really lucky to have him working on the compiler, doing so much work for free.

So I'm little distressed to see some of what I perceive as demanding questions and comments.
I may have it completely wrong and it's not people's intention, but it kind of looks that way.

If you need something to code on like the Amicus board look at the fire wing board by mecanique https://www.mecanique.co.uk/shop/index.php?route=product/category&path=71
Or invest in a Sim by Labcenter Electronics

I cannot answer for the other questions.

I've bought this compiler in all the companies I work with.
I caused all young technicians and  engineers who had internships next to me to buy this .. also Amicus.
I really like the Proton project. Actually, I am a fan of Les;I would love to have a full command of every aspect of the proton at least as much as he does (unfortunately, my native language is not English, sometimes I get stuck)
and I think les should produce products that can be sold in all markets in order for his superior efforts to pay off.(maybe at this point, I can be shifting from my title of technical person to my sales/marketing side ...over time, I learned something in the field of sales/marketing)

I produce and use my own board instead of the amicus board .. If I do not do this, I will still work with pickit2 or 3 ..
but it is a hand-held board for young people / students who are just beginning to pic programming, and special for positron! This will be a very solid reason for its purchase.

Even being able to program the newly released pic 8 bit and 16 bit MCUs with positrons is very good news for me ...

New manual (book / pdf) with more sample code for positron? (for a much easier and permanent expression ...
This must be done absolutely, the fact that positron is very easy to understand, very very easy to learn is also a very powerful factor in its purchase.

I've also worked for bosses for years, and they've made them very serious money with me, but I'm also one of those who can't fully repay my efforts!!

That's why I see Les very well and I am really eager to support him sincerely that I started doing this by purchasing the new version (even when I still have a usb dongle version) and I will buy any of his products in the future.


Today, me and people like me sincerely support Les, tomorrow others will support us too !! that is for sure.
There is a saying in Turkey (proverb)
you reap what you sow!

next to every successful man there is a righteous woman! we also owe a lot of thanks to your wife.
good luck, dear Les.

[glenlivet]

It's no secret that Les suffered a brain hemorrhage a few years ago

While it may have been no secret, there does seem to be a universal assumption floating in the breeze that everyone knew. I did not. I seldom visited the old forum with the exception of seeing if there were any upgrades available. It is only now that I'm finding all of this out.

[top204]

The free updates to the compilers that correct a few anomalies, can be downloaded from here:

https://sites.google.com/view/rosetta-tech/home

[Giuseppe MPO]

I got the compiler with dongles, i'm in Italy, to tell the truth, i bought the Mikroelectronika compiler
but, once I tried it I didn't like it and I bought Proton, and I'm really satisfied with it.
As soon as the updates come out I will buy them.
Thanks Les

[John Drew]

Les,
're the front cover, some ideas:

"A powerful package for beginners and developers"

"Power and ease of use - the compiler of choice for all skill levels"

"If it's possible in an 8 bit PIC, Positron8 can do it"

For this last one you'd need the copyright sign after PIC.

Just some thoughts.
John

[top204]

All three are excellent.

I really, really like phrases 1 and 3.

Now.... Which one of the three phrases do I use? Suggestions welcomed.

Many, many thanks John. You can tell you are a man of words.

Did you notice the slight change in the image I did based upon your suggestion? I'm just finishing off the manual updates for Positron8 and Positron16, so there is always time to add the texts to the front cover.